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--- Log opened Tue Jan 28 00:00:12 2003 --- Day changed Tue Jan 28 2003 00:00 < ringo30> whats a good way to print under linux ? 00:00 < th> using a network postscript printer 00:01 < ringo30> th: what do I install ? 00:02 < th> ringo30: lprng 00:02 < th> or even nothing 00:04 < ringo30> th: cp file /dev/printers/0 you mean ? 00:04 < th> no 00:05 < th> i do not need /dev/printers/ 00:05 < th> i do "ftp my_printer" 00:05 < th> or enter the ip in /etc/printcap 00:05 < th> and use lp 00:05 < th> aehm 00:05 < th> lpr 00:05 < ringo30> lprng ? 00:05 < th> yes 00:06 < ringo30> ok I'll install that one, first creating nice redhead bootlogo ... 00:07 < th> but do you have a networked ps-printer? 00:08 < ringo30> hmm old dj500c.. 00:08 < th> is it connected through network cable? 00:09 < th> (ethernet!) 00:10 < ringo30> parport ... I bought it for 2euro34 00:10 < th> so it is NOT networked 00:13 < ringo30> nope .. no network. 00:13 < th> so u can't follow my advise "< th> using a network postscript printer" with that device 00:15 < ringo30> lprng worked fine (I rember now) ... A few rock distro's ago, with some fix to make it understand postscipt. 00:17 < ringo30> I sometimes need a pointer to refresh memory, if the mem doesnt get refreshed the condensator will loose its info. 00:18 < ringo30> building kernel. 00:23 < ringo30> rebooting brb 00:23 -!- ringo30 [ringo78@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ("leaving") 00:30 -!- ringo30 [ringo78@xs1.xs4all.nl] has joined #rocklinux 00:30 < ringo30> bootlogo != fun .... ==> blurred.... 01:20 -!- hackbard [~hackbard@pD9E0A609.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ("note") 01:22 -!- hackbard [~hackbard@pD9E0A609.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux 01:29 < ringo30> anyone still up ? 01:31 -!- holyolli [~holyolli@port-212-202-178-53.reverse.qdsl-home.de] has joined #rocklinux 01:31 -!- holyolli [~holyolli@port-212-202-178-53.reverse.qdsl-home.de] has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:34 -!- ringo30 [ringo78@xs1.xs4all.nl] has quit ("leaving") 01:39 -!- ringo30 [ringo78@xs1.xs4all.nl] has joined #rocklinux 01:39 < ringo30> hmm now it works .... Nice bootup screen ! Now I can go to sleep ;-) 02:00 -!- ringo30 is now known as ringo30_away 02:00 -!- ringo30_away is now known as ringo30_sleep 04:24 < Satg> Good Night people 04:24 -!- Satg [~Satg@196.40.66.18] has quit ("Client Exiting") 05:29 -!- hackbard_ [~hackbard@p508075BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux 05:45 -!- hackbard [~hackbard@pD9E0A609.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:17 -!- hackbard_ [~hackbard@p508075BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ("uni") 08:05 -!- chrisime1 [~chrisime@p508029D2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ("leaving") 09:15 < blindcoder> moin 10:23 -!- aiko [~aiko@xs195-240-221-225.dial.tiscali.nl] has joined #rocklinux 10:28 -!- blindcod1r [blindcoder@p50801969.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux 10:37 -!- blindcoder [blindcoder@p50801A2D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: blindcod1r!blindcoder@p50801969.dip.t-dialin.net))) 10:37 -!- blindcod1r is now known as blindcoder 10:37 < blindcoder> re 10:44 < kasc> moin 10:44 < blindcoder> moin kasc 10:44 < blindcoder> kasc: regarding the LPP and other patches, please have a look at https://www.crash-override.net/lpp.php 10:48 < kasc> blindcoder: not sure if i even want to try that again. yesterday i nearly got a GAU because of that 10:49 < blindcoder> kasc: oh... okay, then it's maybe better to leave it. 10:50 < kasc> no working kernel, no working sources and no bootdisk 10:50 < blindcoder> *urks* 10:50 < kasc> grub and a kernel deeply hidden in my backup files saved me 10:51 < blindcoder> thats good :) 10:51 * blindcoder usually has an older kernel in his lilo-config "just in case" 10:52 < kasc> i usually do have, too 10:53 < kasc> but since my upgrade to rock-1.7 i forgot to put a backup kernel 10:54 < blindcoder> anyway, good luck that there was one on your backups :) 10:55 < kasc> guess what version it was ;) 10:56 < blindcoder> 2.2.x? 10:56 < kasc> 2.0.11 10:56 < blindcoder> nice :) 10:56 < blindcoder> that's an _old_ backup :) 10:56 < kasc> fortunately i could compile a new one from the rock source tree ;) 10:58 < kasc> think i'd better fix me some rescue system just in case 10:58 < blindcoder> hmm... no ROCK CD lying around? 10:59 < kasc> nope 10:59 < blindcoder> time to burn one :) 10:59 < kasc> why should i buy cd's when i can have everything for free from inet? ;) 11:00 < blindcoder> sure, but I don't have several hendred GBs at my disposal to stare everything I want to have without CD-Rs 11:00 < kasc> what size are those cd images? 11:01 < blindcoder> 680MB usually 11:01 < kasc> too large 11:01 < blindcoder> why? 11:02 < kasc> i only have 74 minutes cd-r's here 11:02 < blindcoder> hmm 11:02 < blindcoder> wan't fit >_< 11:10 < kasc> what about the rescue disk target? does it work, yet? 11:10 < blindcoder> hmm... don't know... is there something like that ? 11:11 < kasc> not sure... 11:11 < kasc> thought i have seen someting like that somewhere 11:33 -!- ringo30_sleep is now known as ringo 11:38 < ringo> kasc: build one you only nee 2 floppies. 11:38 < ringo> s/nee/need 11:39 < kasc> ringo: i'm looking for something more complete... 11:40 < kasc> something with gcc and stuff for going online and something like that ;) 11:41 < ringo> Download iso and mount it temp on hd install it et voila. 11:43 < ringo> ount -t iso9660 -o loop ~/4.6-RC2-install.iso /mnt/iso 11:43 < ringo> s/ount/mount 11:44 < kasc> sounds reasonable :) is there a link to recent isos on rocklinux.org? 11:45 < ringo> https://iso.rocklinux.de 11:46 < kasc> thx 11:46 < ringo> blincoderL: yesterday made my own picture for the bootupscren. 11:50 < blindcoder> ringo: sweet. where can I look at it? 11:51 < ringo> hmmm ... ok .. hmmm ok... will put it on the website... moment. 11:52 -!- bluefire [bluefire@pD9522C74.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux 11:55 < ringo> https://www.xs4all.nl/~ringo78/redhead.png 11:55 < blindcoder> sw33t 11:56 < ringo> put also redhead.tar.gz (Theme there). 11:58 < blindcoder> got it :) 11:58 < blindcoder> ?lol? my Users won't be happy :) 11:58 < ringo> what files at bootup give output to the screen, its still fsckd up by msgs from kernel. 12:00 < blindcoder> it's the kernel itself. I think about exchanging printk(){...} by printk(){} 12:02 < ringo> create a /dev/console2 ? Maybe also an option. 12:02 < ringo> be 12:02 < blindcoder> in theory it should work with /dev/vc/2 12:03 < blindcoder> ringo: oh, and have a look at: https://www.crash-override.net/lpp.php 12:05 -!- Parabull [~Parabull@62.99.178.159] has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 12:06 -!- Parabull [~Parabull@62.99.178.159] has joined #rocklinux 12:09 < blindcoder> ringo: I'd have a 640x350 ROCK logo here (without 'definitions yet') 12:10 < ringo> hmmm nice, can I get it ? 12:13 < ringo> blindcoder: vy diff qwestion whats a good way to real time transform audio, mic--> comp --> output ? 12:14 < blindcoder> puh... never done that before... 12:15 < blindcoder> https://scavenger.homeip.net/~blindcoder/rock_640.tar.gz 12:15 < blindcoder> I wrote the definitions file, I hope it's all correct 12:16 < ringo> ok .... What defintions need to be changed ? apart from picsize ? 12:16 < blindcoder> none should have the need to be changed. 12:17 < blindcoder> I have it adapted like in the README 12:19 < ringo> rebuilding kernel 12:24 < kasc> does anyone of you know how to force a kernel module to a higher debug level? 12:25 < blindcoder> hmm... only if it has a paramater to do so for insmod/modprobe 12:28 < ringo> modinfo -p module will return some paramters 12:30 < kasc> seems being verbose isnt implemented for that module :( 12:31 < ringo> read source ? 12:31 < ringo> blindcoder: Why didnt you remove The #define ++ 12:32 < blindcoder> with the new patch on the aforementioned URI it's not necessary anymore 12:32 < blindcoder> I added the necessary #define's into fbprogress.c 12:32 < ringo> ahhh ok 12:35 < blindcoder> ringo: file: driver/video/fbcon.c line 102 12:35 < blindcoder> add these three lines: 12:35 < blindcoder> #define LINUX_LOGO_COLORS 214 12:35 < blindcoder> #define INCLUDE_LINUX_LOGO16 1 12:35 < blindcoder> #define INCLUDE_LINUX_LOGOBW 1 12:35 < blindcoder> that's all that's needed 12:36 < ringo> ok ! 12:40 -!- hackbard [~hackbard@p508075BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux 12:43 * blindcoder off to lunch l8er 12:43 < ringo> bon apetit ! 12:51 < kasc> jippie! it works! 12:59 < ringo> /quit/q /// 12:32 < blindcoder> I added the necessary #define's into fbprogress.c 12:59 < ringo> 12:32 < ringo> ahhh ok 12:59 < ringo> 12:35 < blindcoder> ringo: file: driver/video/fbcon.c line 102 12:59 < ringo> 12:35 < blindcoder> add these three lines: 12:59 < ringo> 12:35 < blindcoder> #define LINUX_LOGO_COLORS 214 12:59 < ringo> 12:35 < blindcoder> #define INCLUDE_LINUX_LOGO16 1 12:59 < ringo> 12:35 < blindcoder> #define INCLUDE_LINUX_LOGOBW 1 12:59 < ringo> 12:35 < blindcoder> that's all that's needed 13:00 < ringo> sri ... 13:00 -!- ringo [ringo78@xs1.xs4all.nl] has quit ("leaving") 13:20 < blindcoder> re 13:20 -!- kasc_ [~kasc@p5090A2D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux 13:22 < blindcoder> re kasc_ 13:22 < blindcoder> kasc_: what works? 13:23 < kasc_> getting my gamepad to work with linux, especially xblast ;) 13:23 < blindcoder> sweet 13:27 -!- ringo30 [ringo78@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #rocklinux 13:35 -!- kasc [~kasc@p5090BBEC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:50 -!- Parabull [~Parabull@62.99.178.159] has quit ("Client Exiting") 13:51 -!- Parabull [~Parabull@62.99.178.159] has joined #rocklinux 13:56 < ringo30> hmm using old keyb ... types whay better compaq-fujitsu 1:0 13:57 -!- ringo30 [ringo78@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ("Lost terminal") 14:21 -!- ringo30 [ringo78@xs1.xs4all.nl] has joined #rocklinux 14:21 < ringo30> hmm keybord doest reset .... :-( 14:22 < blindcoder> re ringo30 14:22 < blindcoder> does the ROCK-Logo work? 14:23 * snyke has a black compaq here :) 14:23 < snyke> keyboard I mean 14:24 < blindcoder> snyke: you're @bitz 14:25 < snyke> yep 14:25 < snyke> but I've another one at home 14:25 < ringo30> blindcoder; Like a charm only still a lot of info on the screen... 14:26 < blindcoder> ringo30: thanks. I'll have a look if you can redirect those messages somewhere else without killing your init 14:27 -!- kasc_ is now known as kasc 15:00 < ringo30> whats a good whay to use packages in /opt/* put in PATH ? make a link ? 15:00 < blindcoder> they should be 15:01 < blindcoder> from /etc/profile: 15:01 < blindcoder> for x in /usr/X11/sbin /usr/X11/bin /usr/games /usr/local/games \ 15:01 < blindcoder> /opt/*/sbin /opt/*/bin $HOME/sbin $HOME/bin 15:01 < blindcoder> do 15:01 < blindcoder> [ -d $x ] && export PATH="$PATH:$x" 15:01 < blindcoder> done 15:03 < ringo30> ok ! 15:07 < ringo30> thanks it doesnt export to path here ... But still get the idea ! I am looking at bootstrap proc now, nice to learn more about it. 15:15 < owl> hi 15:15 < blindcoder> hi owlita 15:16 < owl> hola blindy 15:21 -!- Mike1 [~mike@odin.informatica.co.cr] has joined #rocklinux 15:21 < Mike1> Greetings @ all 15:22 < ringo30> Greetings b-ack 15:22 < owl> hi Mike1 15:24 < Mike1> :) 15:26 -!- capchaos [~capchaos@B5d9a.pppool.de] has joined #RockLinux 15:26 < capchaos> Hi everyone 15:27 < Mike1> capy! 15:27 < capchaos> Mikey! 15:27 < Mike1> :) 15:27 < capchaos> <: 15:27 < blindcoder> hi Mike1 15:27 < capchaos> ¿Como estas? 15:27 < blindcoder> hi capchaos 15:27 < capchaos> Moin blindy 15:28 < Mike1> capchaos: estoy muy bien gracias y tu? 15:28 < Mike1> hi blindy 15:30 < rolla> re 15:30 < blindcoder> re rolla 15:30 < owl> re rolla 15:32 < capchaos> Mike1, bien, no puedo quejarme. 15:53 * blindcoder goeing home. bye 16:01 -!- tcr [~tobrit@pD9E49D6F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux 16:02 < owl> hi tcr 16:02 < tcr> moin all 16:25 < ringo30> blincoder: cul 16:31 -!- aiko [~aiko@xs195-240-221-225.dial.tiscali.nl] has quit ("Client Exiting") 16:34 -!- capchaos [~capchaos@B5d9a.pppool.de] has quit ("There is no spoon.") 16:48 < Mike1> == 09:51:28 =[3]=> Building base package gcc [3.2.0 1.6.0pre3]. 17:08 -!- Satg [~Satg@196.40.66.18] has joined #rocklinux 17:08 < Satg> Hello people !! :) 17:08 < Mike1> hello satg 17:09 < Satg> Hi Mike, How are you ? 17:09 < Mike1> satg feeling better thx and you ? 17:10 < Satg> Creo que hoy es un mejor dia que ayer 17:10 < Mike1> satg please speak only in english in this channel 17:12 < tcr> hi satg and Mike1 17:12 < Mike1> greetings tcr 17:13 < Satg> Hi tcr, how are you ? 17:13 < tcr> quite busy... trying to track some bugs in bash completion down 17:19 -!- tcr [~tobrit@pD9E49D6F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ("Ho chresim eidos uch hoch poll eidos sophos") 17:37 -!- ringo30_ [ringo78@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #rocklinux 17:41 -!- zer0_o [~zer0_o@pop-be-3-2-dialup-85.freesurf.ch] has joined #rocklinux 18:08 -!- zer0_o [~zer0_o@pop-be-3-2-dialup-85.freesurf.ch] has quit () 18:18 < kasc> is anyone in here familiar with g++ parameters? 18:31 -!- Mike1 [~mike@odin.informatica.co.cr] has quit ("Client Exiting") 18:31 -!- Mike1 [~mike@odin.informatica.co.cr] has joined #rocklinux 18:31 -!- Mike1 [~mike@odin.informatica.co.cr] has left #rocklinux ("Client Exiting") 18:31 -!- Mike1 [~mike@odin.informatica.co.cr] has joined #rocklinux 18:31 < Mike1> arrgg 18:46 -!- chrisime [~chrisime@p508029D2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #rocklinux 18:47 < owl> re Mike1 18:53 -!- blindcoder [blindcoder@p50801969.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ("reboot") 18:56 -!- blindcoder [blindcoder@p50801705.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux 18:57 < Mike1> wm blindy 18:57 < Mike1> vb* 18:57 < blindcoder> re 18:59 -!- tcr [~tobrit@pD9E499BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux 18:59 < owl> re blindcoder 19:01 * blindcoder knows what CD he'll be buying next :) 19:01 * blindcoder np: Busted - Year 3000 19:02 < tcr> re 19:02 < owl> re tcr 19:03 -!- Ge0rG [georg@club-mate.net] has joined #rocklinux 19:06 * tcr oups. brb 19:06 -!- tcr [~tobrit@pD9E499BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ("Ho chresim eidos uch hoch poll eidos sophos") 19:13 * blindcoder np: Apollo Four Forty - Stop the Rock 19:43 -!- Parabull [~Parabull@62.99.178.159] has quit ("Client Exiting") 19:43 -!- Parabull [~Parabull@62.99.178.159] has joined #rocklinux 19:48 -!- chrisime_ [~chrisime@p508028C1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #rocklinux 19:59 -!- chrisime [~chrisime@p508029D2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:03 < Mike1> *yawn* 20:05 < ringo30_> liveradio kaktus.campus.luth.se:8056 anyone know what this is ? 20:05 < blindcoder> hmm... sounds like an internet radio to me :) 20:06 < owl> and looks like one, to mee 20:06 < owl> -e 20:06 -!- tsa [~tsa@pD9525ED9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux 20:06 < tsa> hi 20:06 < owl> hi tsa 20:06 < ringo30_> right with geek news every hour ... its cool. 20:06 < blindcoder> sweet 20:09 < tsa> th: awake? 20:15 -!- vectrax [~vectrax@paradome.de] has quit (Ping timeout: 14400 seconds) 20:16 < tsa> huebi? 20:17 < Mike1> greetings tsa 20:17 < tsa> hi Mike1 20:38 -!- tcr [~tobrit@pD958D815.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux 21:02 -!- zer0_o [~zer0_o@pop-zh-25-2-dialup-60.freesurf.ch] has joined #rocklinux 21:07 -!- ringo30_ [ringo78@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ("leaving") 21:07 < Mike1> 0_o 21:09 * blindcoder going to bed. 21:09 < blindcoder> night 21:10 < Mike1> n8 blindy 21:10 < tsa> hm...someone knows how to show system inventory on sun OBP? 21:13 -!- bluefire [bluefire@pD9522C74.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ("leaving") 21:15 < zer0_o> o_0 21:15 < zer0_o> token a shower 21:15 < Mike1> 0_o how are you ? 21:16 < zer0_o> i'm finished 21:16 < owl> gn8 blindcoder 21:16 < zer0_o> hi owl 21:17 < zer0_o> and you mike? 21:17 < owl> hi zer0_o 21:18 < Mike1> zer0_o: finished? i am doing better thanks 21:18 < zer0_o> what happend? 21:19 * Mike1 was at the hospital last week 21:19 < zer0_o> yeah, i had training 21:19 < zer0_o> broken something ? 21:20 < Mike1> no braking involved, just lots of blood and pain 21:21 < zer0_o> do i have to cramble all out of your nose? say what happend =) if it's now better then last week, is all ok. =) lucky you are alive 21:22 < Mike1> zer0_o: yeah thanks 21:22 < Mike1> zer0_o: its a long story, so stick with that :P 21:23 < zer0_o> i'v got the time of the world .. 21:24 * Mike1 realized zer0_o is a very curious person ... 21:24 < zer0_o> what did you think ? i'm a geek, i AM curious! 21:25 < zer0_o> i'm a sozial sinking ship =P 21:26 < Mike1> *g 21:28 < owl> zer0_o == depressed ? 21:29 < zer0_o> not really 21:29 < owl> zer0_o: :P 21:29 < Mike1> owl are you ? 21:29 < zer0_o> i've got the truth in the eyes 21:29 < owl> Mike1: yeah. 21:29 < Mike1> (*)(*) 21:29 < Mike1> oh .. yeah i forgot those are not ur eyes 21:30 < zer0_o> definitly not *g* if i had such "eyes" i would go suicide.. =P 21:31 < Mike1> lol 21:31 < zer0_o> or operate them away 21:31 < owl> <-- to depressed to think or even type much, too. isn't it great? the only thing i'm doing today - after leaving school - is holding a book in my hands and reading. dammit 21:31 < zer0_o> owl.. whats up? 21:31 < owl> zer0_o: nothing special. life. 21:32 < zer0_o> yeah, reallive sucks =P 21:34 < owl> zer0_o: full ack 21:35 < Mike1> owl: would you prefer to have some more ... "action" than just be reading? 21:36 < owl> Mike1: yeah. sleeping :) 21:36 < Mike1> ok lets go to bed 21:36 < owl> Mike1: aaah! no! not with you! 21:38 < Mike1> ah :( 21:38 < Mike1> ok 21:40 * zer0_o agains TCPA ^^ 21:40 < tcr> ack 21:42 < tsa> ..without having read anything about it, it seems. 21:42 < tsa> tcpa is good and useful under certan circumstances.. 21:43 < tsa> trusted path execution, fo example. 21:43 < tcr> yap, but palladium stinks as hell 21:43 < tsa> tcpa != palladium 21:43 < tcr> and i read TCPA as in ``Microsoft-TCPA'' 21:43 < tsa> ;) 21:44 < zer0_o> yeah 21:44 < zer0_o> that's the undergoing of oss 21:45 < tsa> nack, once again. the tpm has to explicitly enabled by the OS. 21:47 < zer0_o> ah 21:47 < tsa> (which MS will most probably do ;) 21:56 < owl> *hrmpf* stupid eumex! 21:56 < owl> re 21:57 -!- thalerim [~tobrit@pD958D9CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux 21:57 < zer0_o> re 21:57 -!- tcr [~tobrit@pD958D815.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: thalerim!~tobrit@pD958D9CC.dip.t-dialin.net))) 21:57 -!- thalerim is now known as tcr 21:57 < tcr> hrm 21:59 < zer0_o> tcr.. 21:59 < tcr> tsa: you said tcpa could be turned off, which is partly true.. but dont forget about the fact that even in untrusted mode fritz looks if your os is on a revocation list 21:59 < zer0_o> tcr, are you a rock developer? 22:00 < tcr> hrm. actually depends on how you define it 22:00 < zer0_o> i wanted to ask, why there is no port-system in rock .. ( like fbsd or gentoo ) 22:02 < tcr> how do you come to the idea that rock hasnt got one? 22:03 < zer0_o> i never saw it =) 22:04 < tcr> pjotr writes in his guide: "It has been stated ROCK Linux is more BSD with a GNU core than anything else: ROCK has a ports collection (called extensions), a make world (called ./scripts/Build-Target) [...]" 22:11 < cchamilt> is this conversation still going on? 22:13 < tcr> hi cchamilt. what convers.? 22:13 < zer0_o> i don't know what to say =| 22:13 < cchamilt> the one about ports. 22:14 < tcr> it's very unusual here that a conversation is entirely over ;) 22:14 < zer0_o> i don't know if my question was answered , i'm not so good in english. =( 22:14 < cchamilt> I think there is a general misconception about ports and how it would work on linux. 22:15 < cchamilt> Ports is port -s of code like gnu packages for BSD. 22:15 < zer0_o> you think there is no good port - concept for linux? 22:16 < cchamilt> Yep. 22:16 < cchamilt> Building from source is great - the magical Ports no. 22:16 < cchamilt> BSD uses cvs for its normal system. 22:17 < cchamilt> I really doubt there is a Port of the linux kernel. 22:17 < zer0_o> let's develop good ports =) everyone will be greatfull to the dev's =) 22:17 < cchamilt> So it is Bullsh-t when people say ports on Linux. 22:17 < zer0_o> yeah, another name would be good .. 22:18 < cchamilt> If we have a whole bunch of unsupported packages (like our old .ext system) them that is as close to ports as we could get. 22:18 < cchamilt> The idea is that Ports is not part of BSD. It doesn't get released with the main CVS for version 5.x, etc. 22:19 < cchamilt> They are out of the BSD tree and not maintained by main BSD developers. 22:19 < cchamilt> We tried it and it sucked for .exts. 22:20 < zer0_o> .. 22:20 < cchamilt> Not enough good maintainers with time, several overworked, several packages just ignored, etc. 22:20 < cchamilt> We changed ownership in 1.7. Hopefully for the better. 22:21 < cchamilt> Now all packages are directly under people and included as part of the system. 22:21 < cchamilt> People get yelled at if packages go bad. 22:22 < cchamilt> I can also rant about our competition if you'd like :). 22:22 < cchamilt> Portage is basically shell based (like us and RPM). 22:23 < cchamilt> Many people who want ports want something based on Makefiles (like Debian) 22:23 < cchamilt> Christoph Lambert will be making a source based Debian supposedly. 22:23 < tcr> well, but things like to less time etc is still there 22:23 < zer0_o> yeah .. makefiles are great =) 22:23 < cchamilt> That might shut people up. 22:23 < cchamilt> tcr:? 22:24 < cchamilt> I have no problem with Makefiles, but I know shell better. (Most people do) 22:25 < tcr> cchamilt: you criticed the ext packages to be out of date, broken etc. due to lacking on time of the particular maintainers. that's still accurate, and i doubt it can ever be handled very well 22:25 < cchamilt> The idea with shell based is to mimic what a user would do to build the package. 22:25 < cchamilt> tcr: Yeah and I apologize. Most of that is my fault. 22:26 < tcr> i updated a few packages of yours in 1.5 ;) 22:26 < cchamilt> tcr: Luckilly a good bit of the packages are now maintained by (better) other people. 22:27 < zer0_o> what i wanted to say, is, it would be great, if there were some "makefile-like" installation way.. 22:27 < cchamilt> tcr: Yeah but all those parallel packages went to crap (so did some other obscure ones). They make the number of dead packages high. 22:28 < zer0_o> don't you think it's a good idea? 22:28 < cchamilt> zer0_o: Lambert will be doing a dmake based source distro, which I think will be what you want. 22:28 < cchamilt> zer0_0: It will use fake_root and take a new approach to building (probably not chroot). 22:29 < cchamilt> zer0_o: It will do build directories and so forth like a normal binary distro. (I think we are headed to a hybrid for 2.0 too) 22:31 < cchamilt> Like I said, I like shell as it mimics the user. Make is way to sensitive to placement of things for me. 22:31 < cchamilt> I know I need to learn m4?, but I haven't needed to yet. 22:36 < zer0_o> look, i half-understanded what you said (i don't know much about linux) i'm learning fbsd at the moment, to understand how all works and they got great documentation.. i don't know what your goal is with rock-linux.. to get much users, or to let it be a distribution thats for year-long-linux-admins who know how all works.. 22:39 < cchamilt> We have a goal (I think) to get as many admins to use it as possible. 22:40 < zer0_o> for me, as a newbie, i rather would take some gentoo than rock, because of that makefile-thing.. i don't want hurt you, and i hope you understand the big space between my knowlege about these things 22:40 < cchamilt> BSD has a rather neat way of updating the system as on entire package tree. (It acts as on massive program) 22:40 < cchamilt> Gentoo uses shell same as us. 22:41 < cchamilt> Portage is shell based. They are one of the biggest spreaders of FUD about what Ports actually is. 22:41 < zer0_o> ok, now i shot in my own knee =) 22:41 < zer0_o> FUD? 22:42 < cchamilt> Go search for Lambert on the web and see if he has done much yet. 22:44 < cchamilt> Fear, uncertainty, doubt (general half-truths and cloduing of issues to make an issue appear differently) in other words bad marketing. 22:45 < cchamilt> Personally, I don't mind if people use Gentoo. I would just not wanted to be associated with the project. 22:45 < zer0_o> .. =| 22:46 < cchamilt> They market very heavily and their fearless leader has pissed off some core developers. 22:46 < tcr> cchamilt: doesnt gentoo use python? at least mainly 22:46 < cchamilt> Clifford (our leader) is much more credible to me. 22:47 < cchamilt> tcr: It used to have Python hooks in the 'shell' scripts to do things. 22:47 < cchamilt> tcr: Bugs and I think some speghetti code required that they stop using them. 22:47 < zer0_o> gentoo seems to be an anthill, they are working much .. all want to go there <- i think this is a negative point .. the forums are floatet sometimes with spam, i think... 22:48 < cchamilt> tcr: So now they use the shell without hooks and Python just for build order. 22:49 < tcr> nevermind, ive never thought of even considering gentoo since it's pretty mainstream, and mainstream tends to be quite boring. (never used debian as well) 22:49 < cchamilt> zer0_o: They are swamped with too many developers (most not experienced) too fast. This happens with cool projects. 22:50 < zer0_o> yeah, i think so too 22:50 < cchamilt> zer0_o: Their code and maintenance is even more questionable than before. (From Lambert tells me) 22:50 < zer0_o> hm, should i know this lambert ? 22:51 < cchamilt> zer0_o: Lambert quit helping as he said he wrote the instant CD system that play Unreal and drobbins took credit. 22:51 < owl> <-- sleeping. 22:51 < owl> gn8 22:52 < tcr> gn8 owl 22:52 < cchamilt> Lambert was a big contributor to Debian at the beginning. Built (or helped build) many core things. 22:52 < zer0_o> ah 22:52 < zer0_o> n8 owl *knuddel* 22:52 < cchamilt> gn8 owl 22:52 < zer0_o> why he left debian ? 22:53 < tcr> cchamilt: why dont you attract him to come to rock? ;) 22:53 < zer0_o> why did he leave debian? 22:53 < owl> zer0_o: eh! don't do this! 22:53 < cchamilt> We met in Japan a few months ago (which started the whole Japan OSS initiative stuff) 22:54 -!- Mike1 [~mike@odin.informatica.co.cr] has quit (Success) 22:54 < cchamilt> He didn't leave, he is just helping with organization and planning now. He wants Debian to go source based. 22:54 < cchamilt> He is scared of Rock because we run as root in the build and it is hard to fix it the way we make the distro. 22:54 < cchamilt> Though he promised to pilfer our code. 22:56 < cchamilt> He wrote this new package system which should let maintainers maintain over 100 packages easily. 22:56 -!- Mike1 [~mike@odin.informatica.co.cr] has joined #rocklinux 22:56 < cchamilt> It is using really huge macros and may be used in Debian in the future. 22:56 < zer0_o> some kinda freak =) 22:56 < cchamilt> It is an extension to dpkg. 22:57 < cchamilt> Yeah he is a really interesting guy. 22:57 -!- Mike1 [~mike@odin.informatica.co.cr] has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:57 < cchamilt> Debian has the problem we are coming to (again) having 100 packages per maintainer. 22:57 < tcr> well running as root wouldn't be that bad if there was a proper jail implementation in the kernel (which is likely to be in future kernel version, since LSM will ease them quite a lot) 22:58 < zer0_o> what's wrong with building things with root ? 22:58 < cchamilt> Not enough core people that stick around. 22:58 < tcr> ease it 22:58 < cchamilt> zer0_o: What tcr said. We need a jail as we (our code) might accidently be malicious to the host system. 22:59 < cchamilt> One screw up and we could kill you /dev or overwrite your glibc. 22:59 < zer0_o> the-rock, would be a good jail =) 22:59 < cchamilt> Plus we can't do development on other peoples (us not being root) servers. 22:59 < cchamilt> Debian does most development as not root. 23:00 -!- holyolli [~holyolli@port-212-202-178-53.reverse.qdsl-home.de] has joined #rocklinux 23:00 < cchamilt> :) 23:00 < holyolli> moin 23:00 < cchamilt> hi 23:00 -!- Mike1 [~mike@odin.informatica.co.cr] has joined #rocklinux 23:00 < zer0_o> hi 23:00 < holyolli> hi chris, zer0_o, Mike1 23:00 < tcr> cchamilt: well, not very hard for a non-source distro 23:00 < Mike1> cpt. holyolli 23:00 < Mike1> :) 23:00 < holyolli> Mike1: *g* 23:00 < cchamilt> tcr: Yep, it is quite a problem for us. 23:01 < zer0_o> hm, then is the way that rocks steps false ? 23:01 < cchamilt> zer0_o: No just not everything is ready for the Rock visionaries. 23:01 < zer0_o> or do you all have to develope some enviroment to handle this problem ? 23:02 < cchamilt> Actually user mode linux is probably our only solution. 23:02 < cchamilt> Even then I don't know how well things would interface. 23:03 < zer0_o> sounds distorted ... 23:03 * zer0_o 's brain smokes of thinking ... 23:04 < tcr> cchamilt: hmm, i imagine a script which will do something like a Build-Pkg, but let the user get interaction again when (normally) the .conf file would be evaluated. So it just cares about creating the necessary env. for flist... goal is to have a universally usable script with that you can (theoretically) compile all software, though you'll have the tricky meta-data later on 23:04 < cchamilt> I think there are still too many things done as root for user-mode-linux for us to ask for someone like sourceforge to let us build on their servers. 23:04 < tcr> and (as i only wanna be root when typing make install) i think it'll not force the user to root from the beginning on 23:05 < cchamilt> tcr: still have dependencies (you have to find the new library packages that were already built and not the host's) 23:06 < cchamilt> tcr: That is why we put things in a chroot, so new things can find each other during build. 23:06 < tcr> well that scripts is supposed to be used in a working system 23:07 < tcr> i often install smaller software that should never become a rock pkg 23:07 < cchamilt> BSD does their library linking and stuff all inside their tree. So it is about the only system that does it right. 23:07 < tcr> and the most ineresting thing of the meta-data are the flists and mdsums for me 23:08 < cchamilt> tcr: Yeah build-pkg works on a running system, but only to add or update packages. Not to make a new 'clean' distro. 23:09 < tcr> yup 23:09 < cchamilt> tcr: You could chroot into a live build (that is how I fix rock packages that break as I build them) and modify things. 23:10 < cchamilt> tcr: And then run a modified metadata capture (using the new find by timestamp) and make your own 'package' data. 23:11 < tcr> hmm 23:12 < cchamilt> tcr: I think that making personal packages would be easier. (All you need is the download flag and whatever you need in .conf main.) 23:12 < cchamilt> No need for making it pretty. 23:13 < tcr> cchamilt: It sounds pretty easier than it actual is (easy as in consuming not much effort/time) 23:13 < tcr> consider you _have to_ know the way how it's to be installed 23:13 < tcr> ie. 23:13 < cchamilt> tcr: One reason I made a tone of packages was that they were easy to write (about as complicated as making notes on how to build the package). 23:14 < tcr> you need to extract the tar archive once before to read the README/INSTALLATION 23:14 < tcr> and if the programm uses autoconf/make you have to study the output of configure --help. 23:14 < cchamilt> Yep 23:14 < tcr> Then you can write a .conf file -- and the tar archive would have to be extraced once again 23:15 < tcr> (just one issue) 23:15 < cchamilt> I always end up writing these things down. 23:15 < cchamilt> In .ext is was just writing things down (I agree the new style is much more clumsy). 23:16 < cchamilt> ie ./configure --prefix=$prefix [add options] ; make ;make install and the thing built. 23:16 < cchamilt> The hardest thing was making a correct checksum for the D flag. 23:16 < Mike1> ok i am out of here 23:16 < Mike1> n8 all 23:16 < tcr> well. i often install something which I want to have removed, say, a month later (and of course I don't save the sources to do a make uninstall (when offered at all)) 23:16 < cchamilt> night. 23:17 < tcr> and therefore the flists are quite tricky 23:17 < holyolli> cya 23:17 < cchamilt> You could do the timestamp find your self to a temporary file. 23:17 -!- holyolli [~holyolli@port-212-202-178-53.reverse.qdsl-home.de] has left #rocklinux ("X-Chat: it tastes like poo") 23:17 -!- Mike1 [~mike@odin.informatica.co.cr] has left #rocklinux ("Client Exiting") 23:18 < tcr> sounsd more like a detour. 23:18 < cchamilt> then cat $tmpfile | xargs rm -rf 23:19 < tcr> hm? 23:19 < cchamilt> to remove the package later. 23:19 < tcr> and $tmpfile should be? 23:19 < cchamilt> No need to use Rock system at all. 23:19 < Satg> Good night people !!! 23:19 < tcr> gn8 sath 23:19 < tcr> satg 23:19 < cchamilt> the stdout redirect from the find call. 23:19 < cchamilt> n8 23:19 < Satg> gn8 tcr 23:20 -!- Satg [~Satg@196.40.66.18] has quit ("Client Exiting") 23:20 < tcr> using timestamp isnt the most secure thing (dont ask me why, I once came to a reason, but cant remember right now) 23:21 < tcr> hmm 23:21 < cchamilt> find / -mmin 2 > $tmpfile 23:22 < cchamilt> Well you could also copy the guts that use strace I think. 23:22 < tcr> imagine a cron job modifying some important file 23:22 < cchamilt> I haven't looked at them. 23:22 < cchamilt> You should hand parse the tmpfile. 23:23 < cchamilt> (The Rock chroot build would not have daemons running so it would be safe there, just not a live system) 23:23 < zer0_o> i go to bed.. cu all and thanks for giving some clearness to my mind =) good night 23:23 < cchamilt> cya 23:23 < tcr> well. but Build-Pkg also handles the cases of not overwriting sysfiles AFAIK 23:23 -!- zer0_o [~zer0_o@pop-zh-25-2-dialup-60.freesurf.ch] has quit ("n8") 23:23 < cchamilt> nope 23:24 < cchamilt> That is a feature that 1.7 is working on fixing. 23:24 < tcr> however. 23:24 < cchamilt> Multiple touches create multiple packages with copies of the same file. 23:24 < tcr> icompletely forgot the string we were going on 8-) 23:25 < cchamilt> basically you should do the find, but glance the directories in tmpfile and make sure it looks right. 23:25 < cchamilt> :) 23:25 < tcr> basically is nice 23:26 < cchamilt> I use it way too much. 23:26 < cchamilt> I get words stuck on my tongue when I think. 23:26 < tcr> once a flistwrapper written, you -basically- have only to care about a proper setting of LD_PRELOAD 23:27 < cchamilt> now we are getting into stuff I don't knoww about :). 23:27 < tcr> besides i don't intend to defend myself for using ROCK, not as long as you're the facing judge ;-> 23:28 < tcr> you are _not_ the facing judge 23:28 < cchamilt> :) 23:28 < tcr> oh 23:28 < tcr> i indeed negated that sentence 23:29 < cchamilt> I hardly get to use rock for business these days. 23:29 < cchamilt> It is always Redhat. So, yes even I can't defend Rock well. 23:29 < tcr> aaah. keep mum!!! i'm gonna sleep now... it's 23:30 in germany and i have to get up in 6hours 23:29 < cchamilt> If it had RPMs and PAM... 23:30 < cchamilt> OK, I need sleep too. 23:30 < cchamilt> cya 23:30 < tcr> gn8 to you and your wife 23:30 < cchamilt> :) . 23:30 -!- tcr [~tobrit@pD958D9CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ("zZz") 23:32 < rolla> esden: ? 23:49 -!- Ge0rG [georg@club-mate.net] has quit ("lernen") 23:55 < ringo30> hmm installing freebsd for ports collection ... 23:58 -!- Parabull [~Parabull@62.99.178.159] has quit (Remote closed the connection) 23:59 -!- Parabull [~Parabull@62.99.178.159] has joined #rocklinux --- Log closed Wed Jan 29 00:00:30 2003