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[15:26] [raphael] (n=raphael@raphael.netpark.at) left irc: "using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12" [17:25] <esden> bopp [17:32] <madtux> plop [18:05] nookie (n=nookie@M351P014.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) [18:12] sparc-kly__ (n=mubex@64.237.244.104) joined #rocklinux. [18:16] [raphael] (n=raphael@raphael.netpark.at) joined #rocklinux. [18:18] <[raphael]> clifford: ping [18:18] <clifford> pong. [18:19] <[raphael]> so... today I got a bit frustrated with Kontact (the one included in KDE 3.5) basically setting up those crypto modules [18:19] <[raphael]> and... blindcoder asked for someone to take care of a x86_64 installation anyway [18:19] <[raphael]> so ... this is your chance to convince me to install ROCK on my main computer, instead of the currently running NetBSD 3.0 [18:20] <[raphael]> I have built and tested a recent crystal target [18:20] <clifford> ahhh! another x86_64 installation would be great! [18:20] <[raphael]> some comments I have sent to the list about it anyway [18:20] <[raphael]> do you already have a x86_64 machine for ROCK? [18:21] <[raphael]> The cryptography also does NOT work in ROCK [18:21] <clifford> not really. [18:21] <[raphael]> by the way [18:21] <blindcoder> [raphael]: how does crypto not work? [18:21] <clifford> clemy is maintaining ROCK foer x86_64 but has almost no time [18:21] <blindcoder> my /home tells me differently [18:21] <[raphael]> but the S/MIME encryption works, but not the normal gnupg encryption [18:21] <blindcoder> ah, gnupg [18:22] <blindcoder> [raphael]: that might be a priority problem [18:22] <blindcoder> [raphael]: check if gnupg and gpgme are built before kontact [18:22] <[raphael]> blindcoder: in kmail, the security settings (Sicherheit -> Krypto-Module) [18:22] Action: blindcoder fires up kmail [18:22] <[raphael]> well... I "think" it's doable in crystal, at least with much less hassle as with NetBSD right now [18:23] <[raphael]> in NetBSD I do get the GpgME / OpenPGP (gpg) encryption to work just fine [18:23] <blindcoder> [raphael]: AFAICS it's a priority problem, let me double-check [18:23] <[raphael]> and now I installed gnupg-devel with gpgsm enabled [18:24] <[raphael]> which, horray, now gives me also the S/MIME (gpgsm) option in KMail [18:24] <[raphael]> but, Kmail crashes when even just selecting an S/MIME encrypted mail [18:24] <[raphael]> and that's just NOT fun [18:24] <[raphael]> so I have two options - build my own KDEPIM with debugging enabled and fixing that problem here [18:24] <[raphael]> or... take another road [18:24] <blindcoder> hmm [18:24] <[raphael]> install ROCK [18:24] <blindcoder> from the priorities it shoud be fine [18:25] <[raphael]> basically this encryption thing is not that much of importance, but it's getting a stone to roll... maybe [18:25] <blindcoder> it is a problem IMO [18:25] <blindcoder> even though I'm using mozilla/enigmail [18:26] <[raphael]> blindcoder: yes, it is, and MUST be fixed of course [18:26] <[raphael]> basically I'm interested in ROCK because of a few very nice infrastructure items [18:26] <[raphael]> so, the packaging way that ROCK has is the best I have seen so far [18:27] <[raphael]> although it's missing ... well, packages (being rather small yet) [18:27] daja77 (n=daja@dslb-088-072-040-152.pools.arcor-ip.net) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) [18:27] <[raphael]> but I think that ROCK can be promising in the long run [18:27] <blindcoder> [raphael]: creating new packages is quite easy, so if that's all :) [18:28] sparc-kly_ (n=mubex@64.237.245.27) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) [18:28] <blindcoder> personally I can't be of much help this week since I'm only at my parents with just a 8kB/sec connection :( [18:28] <SMP> we don't need another 5000 unmaintained, hardly-working packages ... [18:28] <[raphael]> yes, I know... but, there is also other stuff that "does not work" on ROCK, which works very well somewhere else (like NetBSD) [18:29] <blindcoder> SMP: I wasn't aware that we already had 5k packages ;) [18:29] <[raphael]> the kernel that is currently built by the crystal target (2.6.14.2) really sucks [18:29] <[raphael]> it has just a wrong configuration and fails to boot ANY of my machines [18:29] <[raphael]> with a beautiful kernel panic [18:29] <[raphael]> so, I'm a bit frustrated (honestly) about Linux kernel quality lately [18:30] <blindcoder> yeah, I should finally get off my lazy ass and do a decent kernel configuration :( [18:30] <[raphael]> and, being used to bsd systems I'm probably too used to things just working [18:30] <[raphael]> blindcoder: yes, you should [18:30] <blindcoder> the current auto-config has a few... issues [18:30] <[raphael]> it's not good having a default config that doesn't work on many machines [18:31] <blindcoder> [raphael]: well, it did work on any of my machines, to be true [18:31] <[raphael]> I (by luck!!!) found a working kernel configuration for my old K6-2 [18:31] <[raphael]> (I did the installation with an older ROCK rescue... don't know which one, but it had a 2.6.8 kernel, which worked) [18:31] <[raphael]> so... I'm a bit concerned about ROCK quality as well [18:32] <[raphael]> basically ROCK is the only linux I'm willing to deal with, as it gives me enough power [18:32] <[raphael]> but if it's to be on my main system (again) then I have a few requirements... also for the future [18:32] <blindcoder> you were trying on the x86_64 machine? [18:33] <[raphael]> blindcoder, your mail to the list today gave me some more hopes that ROCK is going into a right direction [18:33] daja77 (n=daja@dslb-088-072-037-157.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #rocklinux. [18:33] <[raphael]> blindcoder: no!!! I'm not trying on my doing-all-in-one-netbsd-machine [18:33] <blindcoder> [raphael]: it's "just" a more verbose thing of https://doc.rocklinux.org/wiki/TopicsCCC2005 [18:34] <blindcoder> [raphael]: what kind of hardware is in that machine you were trying on? [18:34] <[raphael]> this machine is doing tons of stuff all at the same time, from web server, to router (well, until recently) and desktop and www/imap/dns/.../.../...* stuff [18:34] <blindcoder> ah, okay [18:34] <[raphael]> and ALL THIS would need to be possible with ROCK [18:34] <blindcoder> I've never done dns, but all the other stuff [18:34] <[raphael]> I was a complete NetBSD noob in the summer when I set it up, but I was used to FreeBSD and thought well, netbsd might be a good thing to know [18:35] <blindcoder> on scavenger.homeip.net, on pallas.crash-override.net and my laptop [18:35] <[raphael]> so that's what I chose and have since then raised a marvelous overall system [18:35] <blindcoder> true :) [18:35] <blindcoder> nice [18:35] <blindcoder> okay, time for dinner, my parents are calling [18:35] <[raphael]> even with a wonderful backup script, that I have written recently [18:35] <blindcoder> I'll eb back tomorrow, I think [18:35] <blindcoder> sweet :) [18:36] <blindcoder> I do my backing up with taper [18:36] <blindcoder> okay, so I'm off [18:36] <[raphael]> aha, ok, then I need someone to answer some more questiosn [18:36] <[raphael]> bye blindcoder, enjoy [18:36] <[raphael]> thanks so far [18:37] <[raphael]> Now, NetBSD and FreeBSD (at least) can be updated very well [18:38] <[raphael]> and this is sth very important for a system (I would say) [18:38] <[raphael]> ROCK can now be updated as well, yes, I know [18:38] <[raphael]> but it's a "new" feature which still has to prove itself (I hope it will) [18:38] <clifford> [raphael]: I have tried a current crysal with qemu and it worked fine. what exactly was the problem with the kernel? [18:38] <[raphael]> bsds tend to have a rather clean working-out-of-the-box base system [18:39] <[raphael]> clifford: I didn't find out exactly [18:39] <[raphael]> but I turned off various options and then it didn't panic anymore [18:39] <[raphael]> I can send you both configurations though, maybe you can spot the issue [18:39] <[raphael]> (both configurations: the original one and the one I have created that worked) [18:40] <[raphael]> uhm... the system doesn't exist anymore, been replaced by netbsd because Kolab2 does NOT install on ROCK Linux [18:40] <[raphael]> which is sad (I might work on that though in the future) [18:41] <[raphael]> clifford: I think my major requirement of ROCK is that it has to be cleanly updateable [18:41] <[raphael]> and it shouldn't have unexpected kernel panics [18:41] <clifford> yes, i can understand that. ;-) [18:41] <[raphael]> that is, the base system should work, also after updates. I know this is harder to realise (especially test) with a Linux distribution, but it's important [18:42] <[raphael]> what I'm actually very fond of is mkpkg [18:42] <[raphael]> that's really a cool tool [18:42] <[raphael]> so I guess that all comes down to maintainability [18:42] <[raphael]> of running systems [18:43] <[raphael]> clifford: back to a former question: do you already have an AMD64 build host? [18:43] <clifford> not really. [18:43] <[raphael]> and what I'm missing in BSD is DRI (direct rendering interface) [18:43] <[raphael]> so you could use one... [18:43] <clifford> clemy has done a lot of work with amd64 but is busy with his job right now. [18:44] <[raphael]> well, FreeBSD has DRI support, but it's slower than on Linux [18:44] <[raphael]> clifford: I cannot promise you much time [18:44] <[raphael]> either [18:44] <clifford> but a friend of mine has done an amd64 build lately. [18:44] <[raphael]> does it work? since.... if I do a cross build I can only build the first stage and then have to finish it on my amd64 [18:44] <[raphael]> which involves ... risks :) [18:45] <clifford> .. he is doing a lot of 3d stuff and told me today that this is working fine in his build. [18:45] <[raphael]> (of downtime that is) [18:45] <clifford> (this = DRI for 3d) [18:45] <[raphael]> clifford: do you have a GCC 4 available somewhere? [18:46] <[raphael]> or does anyone have a gcc 4 based system available? [18:46] <clifford> daja77 is doing a lot of gcc4 related work [18:46] <clifford> trunk is not ready for complete gcc4 based systems (many packages still fail) [18:47] <[raphael]> ok... cause I recently added something to the G System that does NOT work with GCC 3.4 [18:47] <[raphael]> it does with 3.3 [18:47] <[raphael]> and I "don't know" if it works with 4.0 [18:47] <[raphael]> clifford: what do you think of the Linux kernel stability in general [18:48] <[raphael]> sound didn't work with my build [18:48] <clifford> well, afaics we will switch to gcc4 as default compiler within the next months.. [18:48] <[raphael]> which is... bad [18:48] <clifford> did you try re-running "udevstart" after loading the sound driver? [18:48] <[raphael]> I'm not sure, I don't know udev at all [18:49] <[raphael]> I left Linux before the time of udev and usually tried to stick to systems with devfs before that [18:49] <[raphael]> which means: I don't know in when you start udev and when you load kernel modules [18:49] <[raphael]> in what order [18:49] <clifford> udev is one of the moving targets in TRUNK right now. [18:50] <[raphael]> what I really love is the flexibility of installing ROCK [18:50] <clifford> .. so it also is one of the prblem areas at the moment. :-( [18:50] <[raphael]> I actually did NOT manage to do any "normal" rock installation recently, I always had to use rescue discs, command line, manual mine -i -R ... etc [18:50] <[raphael]> ok [18:50] <[raphael]> Well, I can't live long without a working system [18:51] <[raphael]> I have now (for a few months now) a second machine that runs crystal [18:51] <[raphael]> the one I got from you, if you remember [18:51] <[raphael]> that now serves as a build host for 32 bit systems [18:52] <clifford> so you only had the kernel and install problems for the 64bit system? [18:52] <[raphael]> so... what about kernel stability? What is the trend right now? I saw that there are quite a few new features [18:52] <[raphael]> I didn't even try the 64 bit system [18:52] <[raphael]> no, I had it with an AMD K6-2 system [18:52] <[raphael]> the problems that is [18:53] <[raphael]> and with the Athlon (32 bit) system that already runs rock [18:53] <[raphael]> both couldn't boot the cd [18:53] <[raphael]> (a default bootdisk target) [18:54] <clifford> you built that your own, right? from which svn version (or date)? [18:54] <[raphael]> maybe I should get a list of requirements together first, then come back to you, check what works (or is supposed to work) with ROCK [18:54] Action: [raphael] is checking svn info... [18:55] <[raphael]> 6744 [18:55] <[raphael]> with a few patches applied [18:55] <[raphael]> mainly for KDE [18:55] <[raphael]> nothing kernel related [18:55] <clifford> ah. this is before the ccc fixes. [18:55] <[raphael]> yes, that's for sure [18:56] <[raphael]> 2005-12-15 12:57:17 +0100 (Don, 15 Dez 2005) [18:56] <clifford> I've changed nothing in the kernel config, but added many fixes in the bootdisk in general after the updates which went to r6744. [18:56] <[raphael]> by the way, I had an appointment on 30th Dec., so coming to ccc was out-of-the-question [18:57] <clifford> current head revision is r6946.. [18:57] <[raphael]> I was running ROCK on my main desktop PC until summer 2004 [18:57] <[raphael]> then switched to FreeBSD [18:57] <[raphael]> what I remember of that time is that I spent... much time building new systems and fixing things [18:57] <[raphael]> and... I spent most time on my laptop anyway (also running rock at that time) [18:58] <[raphael]> which basically works fine, a few glitches here and there [18:58] <clifford> I will do some test installs with the 22c3 iso on real hardware this week. Maybe I can reproduce the problems. [18:59] <[raphael]> hmm... thinking about it it is even an option to go install FreeBSD (apart from sticking to netbsd) [19:00] <[raphael]> but rock is, after all, the most flexible thing I know [19:00] <[raphael]> which is better for a development system [19:00] <[raphael]> it just works fine mv current /opt/kde out of the way and see how a different version works [19:00] <[raphael]> that's not as easy with the netbsd things [19:00] <[raphael]> bsd things [19:01] <[raphael]> clifford: what I require of ROCK is a promise for stability [19:01] <[raphael]> I know you can't make such promises [19:01] <[raphael]> which means: there are too many external circumstances that you can't control [19:02] <clifford> well, this is definitely where we want to go. But I can't make such promises in TRUNK [19:03] <[raphael]> now that I think of it there is also a different interest in ROCK [19:03] <[raphael]> for just the thing ROCK is - a distribution build kit [19:04] <[raphael]> since I might need some specialized install sets in the future [19:05] <[raphael]> blindcoder once mentioned trunk is always stable [19:05] <[raphael]> :) [19:05] <[raphael]> oh what fun [19:07] <clifford> at least it is more stable that it was some years ago and I don't want to do any plain ROCK stable series anymore in the future. [19:07] <[raphael]> yes :) I didn't mean to make fun of this, I was just making fun of the whole situation [19:07] <clifford> however, e.g. a crystal rock release will always be based on a specific well-tested trunk revision. [19:07] <[raphael]> [my] whole situation that is... [19:09] <clifford> so, what are we going to do now? [19:09] <clifford> I will do some test installs with current bootdisk builds and you will send me a detailed error report for the bootdisk problems? [19:10] <[raphael]> clifford: I can't send you much details, I can give you the two kernel configurations [19:10] <clifford> that would help already. [19:10] <[raphael]> yes... will send them to the list [19:10] <clifford> ok. [19:11] <[raphael]> clifford: uhm... by the way, BSD port systems have various nice features totally missing/unimplemented in ROCK [19:11] <[raphael]> the same applies the other way round [19:11] <clifford> e.g. ? [19:11] <[raphael]> updating [19:12] <[raphael]> maybe that's already working fine with ROCK, I don't know [19:12] <[raphael]> and dependency handling [19:12] <[raphael]> if I update a specific package I can make sure all dependent ports are rebuilt [19:12] <[raphael]> etc. [19:12] <[raphael]> dependency listing in both ways [19:13] <[raphael]> e.g. what packages depend on this particular package [19:13] <[raphael]> what [installed] packages [19:13] <[raphael]> on the other hand: rock generates dependencies automatically [19:13] <clifford> yep. there are some TODOs in that area.. [19:13] <[raphael]> and i REALLY like the feature of those autofilelists [19:14] <clifford> *g* [19:14] <[raphael]> in BSD ports all files/dirs are explicitely listed [19:14] <[raphael]> and there is this mkpkg [19:14] <[raphael]> for which I didn't find (neither really search) a replacement [19:14] <clifford> I have to go now (in fact I'm already to late). [19:14] <[raphael]> and mkpkg already makes up for tons of yet missing packages in ROCK [19:14] <clifford> cu tomorow. [19:14] <[raphael]> clifford: ok, I don't want to keep you from your duties [19:14] <[raphael]> bye for now [19:14] <[raphael]> thx [19:14] <clifford> afk. [19:46] <owl> moin [20:12] <esden> hrm ... once more hi [20:13] <[raphael]> hi :) [20:13] <owl> hi esden :) [21:59] sparc-kly__ (n=mubex@64.237.244.104) left irc: Remote closed the connection [22:46] [raphael] (n=raphael@raphael.netpark.at) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) [22:46] [raphael] (n=raphael@raphael.netpark.at) joined #rocklinux. [23:33] kasc_ (n=kasc@dslb-084-060-127-144.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #rocklinux. [23:42] kasc (n=kasc@dslb-084-060-112-006.pools.arcor-ip.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) [23:42] Nick change: kasc_ -> kasc [00:00] --- Tue Jan 3 2006