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[00:35] Action: Lucifer_arma is back. [00:37] <stf^rocklinux> wb Lucifer [00:37] <Lucifer_arma> ty, re [00:58] <Lucifer_arma> yay. it's installing in qemu. :) [01:03] <Lucifer_arma> ok, so if I made a custom package list in misc/pkgsel, how do I get rock to use my custom list? [01:03] <Lucifer_arma> https://www.rocklinux.org/wiki/Changing_the_package_selection <-- tells me how to make the list, but not how to use it [01:36] <stf^rocklinux> usually with scrips/Build-Target, it simply builds all packages enabled for a given configuration [01:38] <stf^rocklinux> package specific options in scripts/Config are also only available if the package is enabled [01:41] <stf^rocklinux> err, misread misc/pkgsel with config/<config>/pkgsel [01:42] <Lucifer_arma> I found the option in advanced settings in Config, any way I can set that option in the Config commandline? [01:44] <stf^rocklinux> when you create a file like misc/pkgsel/bbs.in you can select it with 'Additional Package selection' in Config (Expert options) [01:44] <Lucifer_arma> I found that. :) Is there a way to set that from the commandline? [01:46] <stf^rocklinux> not really. you could modify the config/<config>/config and config_usr files [01:47] <stf^rocklinux> those are simple text files, with variable=value lines [01:48] <Lucifer_arma> not a big deal, really. It would just be convenient for automated builds, but after you've run Config once, you're configured, right? Automate away... [01:48] <stf^rocklinux> yes [01:49] <Lucifer_arma> so I'm installing in Qemu and am noticing the installer is a bit rough around the edges. :) HOw is it written? [01:49] <Lucifer_arma> I mean, [01:49] <Lucifer_arma> it seems like you'd want each installation task to be a separate app that gives output to stdout to indicate how far along it is. [01:49] <Lucifer_arma> Then you could write, say, a python app that uses os.system() to execute these tasks [01:50] <stf^rocklinux> the installer is currently a stone plugin [01:51] <stf^rocklinux> and stone (the ROCK setup tool) is written in bash [01:52] <stf^rocklinux> so the bootdisk in stage 2 basically starts stone which does the rest [01:53] <stf^rocklinux> where stage 2 refers to the 2nd stage ramdisk used for booting [01:53] <Lucifer_arma> I think I saw a script with a name that basically said "I'm running in stage 2" [01:56] <stf^rocklinux> target/bootdisk/linuxrc2.sh is the 2nd stage boot script that starts stone [01:58] <stf^rocklinux> and stone is part of the sysfiles package, see e.g. the package/base/sysfiles/stone*.sh files [02:04] ringo (n=info@ip565668e1.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl) joined #rocklinux. [02:05] <stf^rocklinux> I don't know python, but you mean a progress bar, I suppose? Some have already suggested rewriting the installer (because of said rough edges) [02:07] ringo (n=info@ip565668e1.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl) left irc: Client Quit [02:28] <stf^rocklinux> package/sysfiles/stone_mod_runlevel.sh e.g. is a simple stone plugin; as all plugins it can use dialog elements defined in package/sysfiles/stone_gui_*.sh [02:29] <stf^rocklinux> like yes/no dialog boxes, etc. [02:55] kasc_ (n=kasc@dslb-084-060-103-193.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #rocklinux. [03:02] kasc (n=kasc@dslb-084-060-105-005.pools.arcor-ip.net) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) [03:02] Nick change: kasc_ -> kasc [04:32] <Lucifer_arma> ok, so I'm building a custom package list, and I've included basic.set and common.set. How do I disable packages that are enabled in those two? [04:33] <Lucifer_arma> so, I'd like to trim packages I don't need/want [06:01] <Lucifer_arma> on customizing packages: I want to preconfigure apache with a certain web application. Do I need a custom target for that? I want to use the stock apache package to do it, if possible. [06:58] blindcoder (n=blindcod@tor/regular/blindcoder) left irc: Remote closed the connection [06:59] blindcoder (n=blindcod@tor/session/external/x-2382c813892055c4) joined #rocklinux. [07:56] Lucifer_arma (n=dave@user-0vvdcf9.cable.mindspring.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection [07:59] Lucifer_arma (n=dave@user-0vvdcf9.cable.mindspring.com) joined #rocklinux. [08:50] <Lucifer_arma> so, what's the difference now between T2 and ROCK? [08:53] <blindcoder> good question [08:54] <blindcoder> I haven't had a look at T2 since its maintainer has a very explosive temper [08:55] <Lucifer_arma> I saw a comment to that effect on the rock mailing list archives, but I'm looking at their website and the project looks very active. [08:55] <Lucifer_arma> not trying to dig up old wounds or anything, I just like to know what I'm getting myself into. :) [08:56] <Lucifer_arma> my main beef so far with rock is the extensive shell scripting and the people-named package tree. The shell scripting is actually a good thing, though, if y'all were inclined to rewrite it [08:56] <blindcoder> really, I can't tell you because I don't know [08:57] <Lucifer_arma> and the chosen language were something I actually liked a lot (such as python) [08:57] <Lucifer_arma> but there's always the concern about how fresh the packages themselves are. How fresh are they, in general? [08:58] <blindcoder> the packages in package/base are as fresh as they can possibly be [08:58] <blindcoder> unless you like to use cvs checkouts :) [08:58] <Lucifer_arma> :) some projects....yes.... heh [08:59] <blindcoder> other packages depend heavily on who uses them [08:59] <blindcoder> if noone of the ROCK people uses them, they may be quite old [08:59] <blindcoder> in which case you are very welcome to take over maintainership of them :) [09:01] <Lucifer_arma> well, not sure that I'm jumping onto that. :) I didn't see the kde packages in there. How easy is it, in general to update a package? [09:01] <Lucifer_arma> so if the package that's there is quite old, but the program's build system hasn't changed significantly, is it just a matter of changing version and download links? [09:02] <Lucifer_arma> and how realistic is that a possibility? [09:02] <blindcoder> that's how it usually works [09:02] <blindcoder> basically, to update a package you do: [09:02] <blindcoder> ./scripts/Create-PkgUpdPatch wesnoth-1.1.4 | patch -p0 [09:03] <blindcoder> and with that the package wesnoth is updated to version 1.1.4 [09:03] <blindcoder> even the linux kernel can be updated that way [09:05] <Lucifer_arma> so what's the general level of activity around here? [09:06] <blindcoder> currently a bit low because the lead maintainer doesn't have an internet connection [09:07] <Lucifer_arma> long-term prospects for the project? [09:08] <blindcoder> quite nice [09:08] <blindcoder> several people here use ROCK for commercial projects [09:08] <Lucifer_arma> reasons? sorry for the abruptness of the questions... [09:09] <blindcoder> also, I am using it for a little distribution of mine and a customised livecd at work [09:09] <Lucifer_arma> that's the lvn cd, isn't it? [09:10] <blindcoder> lvp cd, yes [09:10] <blindcoder> and then a non-open target at my employer [09:11] <Lucifer_arma> aha. So there's a couple of implied criticisms at rock that I saw on the t2 site. (this is starting to read like an interview, heh) [09:12] <Lucifer_arma> how open is rock to patches and new developers? I was told (by you?) yesterday to submit patches to submaster, and then saw on the mailing list that there are apparently some issues with submaster. [09:12] <blindcoder> yes, it isn't feature complete now as was discussed [09:12] <blindcoder> which directly leads back to the lead developer lacking internet connection [09:12] <Lucifer_arma> I didn't read the whole discussion, I must admit [09:13] <Lucifer_arma> how many people have commit access? exact number not needed, but I don't know how else to answer that without an exact number :) [09:14] <blindcoder> three [09:14] <blindcoder> four, actually [09:14] <blindcoder> three to commit 'normal' patches, and one to speed-commit (circumventing submaster) security patches [09:15] <Lucifer_arma> wow. that's not much, is it? [09:15] <blindcoder> that's about half (a bit less) than the numebr of active, permanent rock devs [09:15] <blindcoder> one feature of submaster that is still missing is auto-application of patches [09:16] <Lucifer_arma> why such a small number of folks with commit access? [09:16] <blindcoder> so if I commit an update to wesnoth, which isn't an 'important' package, that patch will be applied directly without waiting in submaster [09:16] <blindcoder> it's been this way when I arrived at the project. back then, only the lead developer had commit access [09:16] <blindcoder> I'm not sure about the reasons [09:16] <blindcoder> you might ask th. he could know [09:17] <Lucifer_arma> the lead developer is the guy without internet access right now, right? [09:18] <blindcoder> correct [09:18] <blindcoder> clifford [09:20] <Lucifer_arma> man, I hate it when projects fork. Then I've gotta try to figure out who was right because the best decision I can make for myself depends on that. :( [09:20] <Lucifer_arma> I guess this fork happened long enough ago that it doesn't matter, and technical merits aren't as important to me as community merits [09:20] <blindcoder> heh [09:20] <blindcoder> It happened in the summer of 2004 [09:22] <Lucifer_arma> only 3 people with commit access might be a showstopper for me, sorry. I won't know for a little bit yet, have more stuff to check out, and you guys certainly shouldn't take it as a slight or anything if it works out that way. [09:23] <Lucifer_arma> any idea what the primary reason for the fork was? Were you here back then? [09:24] <blindcoder> I was on the project back then, but I happened to be on a move to Berlin then [09:24] <blindcoder> so when i got my internet connection back I saw the fork [09:34] <Lucifer_arma> so I've got another little wrench to toss in there [09:34] <Lucifer_arma> awhile back I did some freelance writing with newsforge as my main customer. [09:34] <Lucifer_arma> A little while ago I shot off an email to the editors there to see if they're interested in an in-depth review of ROCK [09:35] <Lucifer_arma> if they bite, I'll write the article, of course. :) If not, I intend to shop it and see if I can get a buyer. I don't do freelance writing much anymore, it's possible my old contacts have dried up. [09:36] <Lucifer_arma> the possibility of doing t2 as a second article and getting paid twice for essentially the same work is quite attractive. :) If they bite on the first one, that is... [09:36] <Lucifer_arma> I guess that's just information, don't want to hold anything back. If they bite and I have criticisms that might be considered scathing, I don't want you guys to feel like I fucked around with you, that's all. [09:37] <Lucifer_arma> in any case, if I find a buyer, I have to address the fork in the article somehow, to give readers information they need. [09:38] <blindcoder> sure [10:10] <Lucifer_arma> ok, I just joined the developer's list. Had been putting it off, I must admit, to see if I was going to use the thing. [10:14] <daja77_> btw there are 4 ppl with commit rights ;) [10:16] <blindcoder> daja77_: 09:10 < blindcoder> four, actually [10:17] <Lucifer_arma> s/3/4/ [10:17] <daja77_> :) [10:18] Action: Lucifer_arma gets corrected all the time :) [10:19] <th> morning [10:19] <Lucifer_arma> today is Towel Day, btw [10:19] <blindcoder> moin th [10:19] <th> really? [10:20] <Lucifer_arma> yep. so carry your towel with you. [10:20] <th> cool. well. dont panic. [10:20] <Lucifer_arma> https://www.towelday.kojv.net/ [10:20] <th> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towel_day [10:22] <esden> nice ... Ok it is good that I took the towel with me yesterday ... so I can carry it today in a prominent position [10:22] <esden> and ... good morning everyone [10:23] <blindcoder> moin esden [10:26] <Lucifer_arma> so, if the floodgates on svn commit access were opened up, how many people do you guys think would wind up? Is the number about 10, 15, 20, what? :) [10:26] Action: Lucifer_arma wonders how many have cvs access on armagetronad [10:26] <th> personally i see committing to submaster like committing to a development/testing branch [10:27] <th> and we DID have such a svn tree. personally hosted by blindcoder. [10:27] <blindcoder> which got burned down again on the promise of submaster auto-commit [10:27] <th> it was seized after the last CLT. because it was considered no longer needed [10:28] <Lucifer_arma> CLT? [10:28] <th> blindcoder: no. it was not because of the that promise. [10:28] <th> blindcoder: i think it was you seeing that it was no longer needed with the CURRENT situation [10:29] <Lucifer_arma> whoah, I wasn't trying to start a fight... heh. [10:29] <Lucifer_arma> I guess submaster is supposed to functionally replace lots of developers with commit access? [10:29] <th> Lucifer_arma: yes. i think so. [10:29] <Lucifer_arma> ok, why? [10:30] <th> because clifford wanted to have total control over what happenes in the tree. [10:30] <th> s/nes/ns/ [10:30] <Lucifer_arma> I know he's not here to speak for himself, do you know if he still feels that way? [10:31] <th> he still wants this sort of control to the tree. so access is limited - and patches shall only be possible through sm [10:31] <th> i think he wrote a paper on the submaster idea [10:33] <th> i found something https://www.nluug.nl/events/sane2004/abstracts/ab.html?id=141 [10:33] <Lucifer_arma> this sounds like ego to me. (no response needed, not trying to cause trouble) [10:34] <Lucifer_arma> hmmmm.. darcs :) [10:35] <th> ego was infact the reason for the t2 fork. IMHO [10:36] <Lucifer_arma> well, ego is a part of every fork, isn't it? [10:37] <th> no [10:37] <th> i dont think so [10:37] <th> it might be rational by technical reasons [10:37] <Lucifer_arma> oh sure, a difference in how to proceed into the future, fork and see which one winds up better, then everyone gets back together behind that one [10:38] <th> even permanent forks [10:38] <Lucifer_arma> armagetron was forked because the original developer disappeared off the scene [10:38] <Lucifer_arma> when he reappeared, he had three choices. Quit worrying about it and do nothing, continue work on the original project, or join the fork. [10:38] <Lucifer_arma> He joined the fork. [10:39] <Lucifer_arma> so scm now shows a fork, but there really isn't one anymore :) [10:39] <th> what's with fluxbox/blackbox? [11:07] <Lucifer_arma> I guess the thing with commit access is that I want to know if I get involved with a project that I will be trusted to code to a common vision while executing my own personal goals, [11:07] <Lucifer_arma> and that that trust means I can commit directly to the trunk. [11:07] <Lucifer_arma> the mechanism that allows that is not important, and I'm confident that if I'm around long enough I can establish that trust, if it's available [11:08] <th> well. submaster is open from the beginning [11:08] <Lucifer_arma> and if I use ROCk, I'm going to write a graphical installer and it'll be in python. :) [11:08] <th> personally i love python ;) [11:08] <th> pyqt? [11:08] <Lucifer_arma> right, but if everything I do must always pass scrutiny before being accepted, and nothing can ever change that, I'm not interested. [11:09] <th> yea i see [11:09] <Lucifer_arma> pyqt more than likely, pygame maybe, I like pygame. [11:09] <Lucifer_arma> I also like pyqt. :) [11:10] <Lucifer_arma> so it's your basic micro-management thing. I've been around a bit, like I keep saying, and I'm not interested in joining a cathedral. [11:10] <Lucifer_arma> so is rock a cathedral, or a bazaar? ;) [11:10] <th> neither of the two [11:10] <th> it's way smaller than both. [11:10] <Lucifer_arma> I'm not familiar with a third option, explain. :) [11:12] <th> our user/developer base is just too small to talk about a cathedral or a bazaar. [11:12] <Lucifer_arma> sure about that? [11:12] <th> yes. [11:12] Action: Lucifer_arma wonders if armagetron is bigger or smaller than rock [11:17] <Lucifer_arma> basically the areas I'm looking at working on are graphical installer and package management. I consider it a good thing that package management is still fairly immature compared to, say, rpm or deb, [11:18] <Lucifer_arma> because that means it doesn't suck like rpm and deb, and maybe I can write code that'll make it better. [11:23] <Lucifer_arma> whos' this ragnar fellow? He's in both this channel and the t2 channel [11:37] Nick change: Lucifer_arma -> LuciKillsdistros [11:38] Nick change: LuciKillsdistros -> LuciKillsDistros [11:38] Nick change: LuciKillsDistros -> LuciEatsDistros [11:38] Nick change: LuciEatsDistros -> Lucifer_arma [12:55] Lucifer_arma (n=dave@user-0vvdcf9.cable.mindspring.com) left #rocklinux ("Core dumped."). [13:03] blindcod1r (n=blindcod@tor/session/external/x-5dc7cd24d6b92e32) joined #rocklinux. [13:04] blindcoder (n=blindcod@tor/regular/blindcoder) left irc: Nick collision from services. [13:05] Nick change: blindcod1r -> blindcoder [15:11] Nick change: toberkel -> toberkel_away [15:12] Nick change: toberkel_away -> toberkel [16:54] <fake> moin [16:56] <blindcoder> moin fake [16:56] <fake> blindcoder: another stupid irssi question, how do i close query windows? [16:56] <fake> /close doesn't work ;) [16:57] <blindcoder> /wc [16:57] <fake> ah, for window-close [16:57] <fake> ? [16:57] <blindcoder> /window close [16:57] <fake> nice [16:57] <fake> thanks! [16:57] <blindcoder> /wc is an alias to /window close [16:58] <blindcoder> fake: do you happen to know when clifford will be back? [16:59] <fake> it'll be a while [17:01] <blindcoder> doesn't he love us anymore? *cry* [17:02] <fake> that i don't know. [17:02] <fake> we should torture the truth out of him! [17:03] Action: fake saw the last episode of 24 season 5 yesterday [17:03] <blindcoder> well, that'll be your job, seeing as you are the one closest to him geographically [17:04] <blindcoder> haven't seen a sigle one yet [17:04] <fake> well, i would be at a bbq at his house right now, celebrating his birthday, but he canceled it last-minute [17:04] <blindcoder> all I've seen this week is the ceiling of my sleeping room [17:05] <fake> blindcoder: why? sick? [17:05] <fake> blindcoder: 2 broken leges? [17:05] <fake> -e [17:06] <blindcoder> fake: yeah, got a fever on saturday and still haven't fully recovered [17:09] <fake> blindcoder: a fever caused by what? [17:10] <blindcoder> fake: I blame Poland [17:11] <blindcoder> fake: friend of mine who was in Poland for two weeks came over [17:11] <blindcoder> fake: an hour after he left I got a fever [17:11] <blindcoder> fake: so I blame Poland. [17:27] <fake> blindcoder: which is always a viable option. [17:27] <fake> blindcoder: this friend you are talking about doesn't happen to be esden? [17:27] <blindcoder> no [17:28] <blindcoder> fake: had it been esden, I'd have blamed him directly :) [17:42] Action: fake going home, cya [17:42] <daja77_> cu [17:46] SteffenP (n=steffen@p54996003.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #rocklinux. [17:58] SteffenP (n=steffen@p54996003.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Remote closed the connection [18:20] blindcoder (n=blindcod@tor/regular/blindcoder) left irc: Remote closed the connection [18:20] blindcoder (n=blindcod@tor/session/external/x-2425e7822c822d57) joined #rocklinux. [19:44] SteffenP (n=steffen@p54996003.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #rocklinux. [20:56] SteffenP (n=steffen@p54996003.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: "https://www.bomberclone.de" [21:48] daja77 (n=daja77@dslb-088-072-044-091.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #rocklinux. [21:58] daja77_ (n=daja77@dslb-088-072-037-183.pools.arcor-ip.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) [00:00] --- Fri May 26 2006